So when it came to getting Mikey into school it was apparent pretty much immediately that he wasn't going to fit in just as smooth as we thought he would in a typical educational environment And we were lost for a little while there we got him into some intensive ABA therapy but then we were hit with something that was so uplifting And we want to share you And we want to share that with you guys here We were introduced to Montessori through his ABA therapist back in Virginia And today we're joined by our friend Erin who we've been able to work with and educating not just Mikey but the rest of our kids And if you stick around to the end you'll hear what she's doing That's a pretty pretty cool

Hello Hello Today we are joined by miss Erin Brooks and she is a mom of neurodivergent kids She's also a Montessori trained elementary guide also known as a she's a behavior analyst a special education teacher and an entrepreneur So we are definitely delighted to be able to interview Aaron today and help educate our audience on the Montessori education and why we thought it would be a good fit for Mikey's education So thanks so much for joining us today Erin

Thanks Thanks for inviting me

Yeah Yeah just to get started here with with our audience tell us a little bit about your background in

Yeah So I started out as a Montessori assistant when my two youngest children were I was looking for a Montessori school for them in town We had just moved here to Austin And so I found a school that was hiring I worked in there and the primary classroom as an assistant Over the few months that I was there I asked how can I learn more about this this is really like life changing so I just read as much as I could And when I left that job I continued reading as much as reading and just researching I don't know if it's considered research but it just reading as much as I could about Montessori And then I ended up working at a play-based preschool Christian preschool in my town we're just a little bit outside of Austin I worked there for three years just saving every penny so I could go to Montessori training And so when I ended up going to Montessori training then I became an elementary teacher and worked in public and private Montessori schools since about 2014 So yeah it's been a few years now

So it's funny I'm sorry to interject real quick but like when I think about Montessori it's very experiential It's very much on your own So what was Montessori training it sounds a bit more regimented

Yeah it was more it was we did get to use the materials we would watch the T the trainer she would give all she or he I there's mine was a girl so she would give the lesson to us as she would a child just way slower Cause we were recording we were typing everything and so we would just record all the lessons as she gave them And then we just had to memorize them So it was not like a Montessori child would go through it We cause we had to just learn hundreds maybe thousands of lessons I don't know I have all these album a bookshelf full of albums up there I don't I haven't counted them There's so many lessons

that's super cool

Yeah

Yeah So when you were doing your your in-class work with the kids what did you find that you were most passionate

Oh I love the part of Montessori where we get to learn from the children the child individual children in front of us Because just because I know the lesson doesn't mean I know that child I don't know how it's going to reach that child I don't know how it's going to hit them I don't know what words they're going to hear I know what I'm going to say it's pretty scripted It's very simplified but then they'll ask a question and every single child he's been in front Takes the lesson and a totally different way And it's so awesome So for me as a guide as a teacher as a person I love flexibility I love change It keeps me on my toes I have the kind of mind that doesn't like to do the same thing all the time And so I love that I thrive on that so no two days are ever alike No two lessons are ever

What is it about All right For our audience and for the folks that are listening who may not know what Montessori is like we thought At the very beginning they're just Montessori was more like preschool So what is Montessori

Yeah that's a good question I th I was one of those people too I had no idea until my son was in elementary and elementary program I didn't even know it existed and that was my youngest son So I have four kids and I Kids missed out because I didn't know about it let's see Okay So what is Montessori It's a constructivist style of teaching So they say that the child will construct their own learning which sounds really great Yeah But we ha that means we as the adult have to work extra hard to make sure that what we put in their environment is going to teach them Because if we put they're going to learn from their environment all children learn differently And so we want to make sure we are constantly like pushing them to their edge of What they can learn so if we give for example a child comes into a traditional school and they sit down in the same chair every day and the same worksheet they're maybe going to learn a lot of skills that do with having to do with sitting down in a chair and writing but in the real world What really have they learned What how is that going to translate into meaningful activities So in Montessori we're using it like movement a lot of movement a lot of pretty much practical life skills like cooking and just socializing getting along with others

Okay No that's good Cause like I said it's a bit of more of an experientials type of of an environment And I dig it I think it's pretty cool I think if I had this opportunity when I was younger that maybe I would have done More exploring of the things that I thought that were interesting rather than just waiting for that science module to come around about space that really got me jazzed you know So that was really that's really helpful I know our kids they get

Yes Yes And one of the things that I like about seeing Mikey in class and just seeing the Montessori materials is that it's a very kinetic learning Like they're touching it like when they do math they're not doing a worksheet of five plus five there's bead bars and you can count and you can use these these different manipulatives and and that translates to all the subject areas language arts there's there's grammar boxes and shapes for learning how to do punctuation and just the way that the all of the materials are designed and everything it just it's very engaging so much more so than me sitting in a third grade classroom and watching the teacher do a lecture on the projector and then zoning out

Yeah So basically it's the way I would describe it to someone who doesn't know is instead of having a math textbook you've got these little beads and then you have beads that are in a string that are called bars and then they're arranged in ways that make cubes and ever bigger cubes so that you can visualize and you can interact with these things instead of turning a page or writing on a whiteboard or a smart board or whatever technology you guys are using in the future when you're listening to this in 2030 so it is very much more hands on I think that is really neat And if you I'm sure we'll encourage you many times along the way to check out Montessori as well but really it is very interesting

Yes Yes And are there a lot of textbooks in the classroom

well there's a few I wouldn't I don't know if they're really considered textbooks They're they're reference books picture books national geographic kind of those DK books I took them all to my place I don't have any examples here anymore Yeah like really cool stuff on like sharks and whales or botany or whatever subject area So they're learning a lot but yeah not your typical dry textbooks nothing like that

I just remember that Going back to my elementary experience it was get out your math book It's time for math Get out your social studies book get out your whatever book you were doing in the class And it's just

yeah look it's really interesting now that we're involved to see that there's a level of creativity No matter what you're learning And when I was a kid and when Heather was a kid it was very much books workbooks We're learning through rote repetition And it was very much very methodical and did not leave a lot of room for creativity So I think it's interesting and the results that we get out of that is that Mikey has specifically I think he's gained just a different sense in his head for math He was already pretty good with numbers I don't know if he worked it out before he asked me the question but he was just weird driving around in the car the other day And he was like dad what's 15 times 15 I'm like you know what He's it's 1 25 I'm like did you just what I'm like I'm not even I'm not even gonna bug you anymore man But like I had to I was carry the one and this I was in my own head going about it the old way And I think he just kinda cracked the code so we The experience that we've had now there's certainly some things that are different that's not always bad but what drew you to Montessori What brought you to that world Not for us it was being introduced by a therapist but for you you've taken out a whole

Yeah I really did It started also with my children Just like you before Even before I had kids I had a horrible time in school myself it was not like you're saying about the creativity Like I didn't want to wait six weeks for the next science box of science whatever to come show up I didn't want them to have to order that Why does science have to be in a box for me That was my big area with science I loved science so space same kind of thing so for me I love I got out of high school I did I left early I didn't drop out I graduated early It was very methodical I took early classes so I could they didn't have they have now with the I don't know what it's called rehab college Two years of college I didn't get that option Yeah I wish they did but I tried I went to the college and I asked can I do this while I'm in college Or while I'm in high school

Yeah I know what you mean now Yeah What is that That I know it is called yard We've been

Yeah they just don't hit Didn't have yeah I didn't mean to get off topic but for me I just had to get out of high school as quickly as possible Get out get to college get on my own get my life going for me definitely I didn't want that for my kids I didn't want to put them through that So I immediately started looking for a new alternative when I was describing it to I wasn't at the university but I was also taking college classes to learn how to be a better mom And I described Hey this is the kind of thing I'm looking for my children And they said it sounds like you want Montessori And I was like no that's so fancy I'm not fancy I don't have money like that I can't afford that And they're like no actually the cheapest the part-time program Is right near your apartment and you could afford that and it's within your budget So I gave it a try and it reeled me in I'm hooked

That's awesome

Wow Wow And I love how you you keep going back to your children and how they're on the spectrum somewhere on the spectrum as well Do you think that Montessori education is a good fit for special needs

100% It is So that's part of what I studied in my reading It was designed for these children It was designed for every child and she first started out when she got out of medical school she was given the opportunity to work children like an institution back then they would institutionalize we're going And they just they had given up on them education-wise they said they're just not they can't read they can't write they can't speak They're sitting in basically a blank cell Like I like a jail but not really They weren't in trouble They just were considered ineducable and it was just sad When I read about that now the language they used back then was a little different it's harsh So I won't repeat some of the technical language they used back then that we wouldn't use now but the materials were designed for all different learners and what a surprise they could actually learn Everyone can learn yeah it's definitely made for any child

When you say everyone there's a I'm sorry I had to just tuned into me on this part here too because there's something very unique about Montessori that we weren't prepared for and it goes into the every one thing and it really goes into the community So can you could you take a few seconds to talk about sure you're the age for a certain grade but And then what's the rest of that sentence

So we also do find tune the education to the individual child and sometimes they get an extra year and the same Oh okay So hold on Pause I forgot to mention that we have multi ages in each grade so it's totally different

about

Yes Okay so in each classroom you're not just going to have all first graders or all second graders You're going to have first second and third And so you're going to have a mix a constant rotating mix of like oldest to youngest in it within that little grade or classroom And They learn from each other So this is something Maria Montessori discovered that children learn better from their peers than from adults they do learn from adults but if you teach okay So if you were to teach a child something really well for two or three years and then they teach a younger child it's there the child is going to be more enamored with it I think

I

coming from another

For sure I think there's definitely something about their perspective is different than ours Number one number two I think it's I don't even think we need to study it anymore but our kids are more influenced by their peers than their parents for good and for bad but I that was one of the things that I thought was like I was like okay for real right joy Our little one is going to be in there with like kids that are like two years older than her I was like all right whatever We give it a shot Yeah She absolutely loves it and she's she does really well and Mikey doing the same thing and being able to see him progressed to a point where he's one of the older students that are in there now as well and his willingness to help it wouldn't stop him if he was in a group of kids all his same age but it's really neat to see with kids that are younger too So that's one of the things that I thought that was really unique and I don't fully understand like how it works I just see that it doesn't

When it comes to educating kids on this that are on the spectrum or that have special needs and they're in the Montessori setting what are the some of the disadvantages or what are some of the challenges that that private Montessori's might have

You caught hold on real quick You qualified and said private Montessori's too Just so you know like we've got weird we happened to be in Texas where there is a public Montessori so that's pretty cool So check your states check around ask around find out what the options are there as well because not all Montessori's are private necessarily so that's at least a let's let you know that that way you can don't feel like you can't go and investigate Please Please check it out

Yeah because honestly we have a budget as well and considering private Montessori for our family would not have been at all I think it everything lined up because of the fact that we found a public Montessori that de Montessori that didn't have a tuition otherwise we wouldn't have really been able to

No we just would've stopped feeding them and they wouldn't have done gymnastics and stuff like that But no Lego's right That's it Christmas is off but you're going to learn now We're kidding That's good Sorry So to go back to your question then I guess you know what to repeat it What if any disadvantages or cons do you see for parents of special needs children within the Montessori inviting

We were taught So we're taught in our Montessori training to keep the number of students who are new or with special needs to a ratio of five to 10% of the total class which sounds great That's like the tier three tier one two and three model in public school You have this triangle I don't know if you've seen it before when they say you have most of the class will offer At a general education level you don't really have to do many interventions They're just going to be just be able to learn whatever the teacher tells them pretty much And then you have a little bit in the middle of the triangle are the tier two people and they have small group they can have small group intervention but then that tiny little one to 5% the tip of the triangle that's the tier three And they need like really specialized One-to-one a lot more intensive work And so I think the down I think we need an upgrade We meaning I can't speak for everyone Of course obviously in Montessori world I'm not even at that level We need to start looking at the reality of the children who are coming into our classrooms instead of looking at the book because the book tells us one thing but that was written a hundred years ago or whatever it was made for a different time W we don't live in those times anymore And thank goodness public Montessori is expanding So there's over 500 public Montessori schools now And the And that's only continuing to grow so

how can do you know how people can find out about public Montessori schools Is there

there's a resource So there's one called the national center for public with the NCM P S national center for public Montessori in the public sector I'm sorry I've said that 500 times in my whole life and

Say it again I was going to Google it

Yeah In C M P S So the national center For Montessori in the public sector

okay Okay Great

I must have stage fright because I've never messed that up in my life

That's okay It's a very long it's a very long name So the website is actually a public-montessori.org Of course that'll be within our show notes too

Okay great Great let's see here Do Montessori schools since most of the Montessori schools are private do they do like individual education plans like public schools

That's a really good question too They and that's one of the reasons that brought me back to Montessori with my son when he had an IEP at age three and they were trying to get him to go to the public school The little program and I thought okay that sounds great They're going to send a little bus to come pick him up and he's going to get whisked away and they're going to do their thing And he's going to come back home on the little bus Great I don't I can just sit back and I don't know And then I started asking questions So he has an IEP He doesn't have a diagnosis You just did an assessment and noticed he's having some And he wasn't he had a whole thing It is autism but he didn't have the diagnosis at the time They didn't say autism They just said he he needs an IEP We don't know why we don't know what just speech communication So when I asked them what services he was going to get certain speech or whatever No when we were just going to have them go in a classroom it's just going to have six six to 12 children Yeah That's it And I thought okay I'm not sure they're telling me anything that they're going to be doing with him there's no answer to that So to answer your question about the private Montessori I ended up driving 45 minutes and we lived in Arizona So Phoenix was the big metropolitan area from my house it was worth it to me to figure I don't know how we did it somehow Find a way to I wasn't working and we're not rich I don't know how we paid for it but somehow drove all that way Took my son to the Montessori program for half a day just because he was getting more out of that program Individualized no IEP It was just already individualized He needed help with socializing He got a whole classroom full of socializing He needed hand handwriting They helped I so I didn't really answer your question So they don't have an actual IEP but they do individualize for the

No I was going to say you did

Yeah you did because the Montessori philosophy is that the education that it's a child led education And so it's the guide's job to see where that child's strengths are where their challenges are and let them enjoy their strengths but also guide them to the areas that they're challenged Yes They may not need an IEP because they're gonna have the same teacher for three years and they're going to know that child and all that kind of stuff

Yeah it's cool But with that being said and now that you've gone down the path of good long ways here to and continuing to go down there as well what other so the point of the IEP really is to get the services to accommodate and help your child learn do those services exist within Montessori then as well Like occupational therapy or speech therapy or

I have seen it I don't know how common it is but there are specialists who do come in A lot of our training says don't have specialists but the school is different Every school is different so they will they will allow mostly if a child does need extra help They'll have a set time for it Typically the morning is like off limits because there's this we have this thing called the uninterrupted work period or uninterrupted work cycle And we have three hours which really allows the child to dive deeply into whatever focus area they want say someone's really interested in a map of Europe or the Titanic or some dinosaur study so if they were getting stopped to stop their research and then they'd have to put all their work away it's less likely that they're going to come back to their work So we keep this three hour like precious time bubble for them to really dive deep into their work So they try to say no specialist no nothing scheduled In the morning

Okay that helps

Yeah

Okay So what advice would you give parents who are considering Montessori for their special needs

yeah You definitely have to talk with them first be really upfront with what you need or what you suspect And then they will they'll probably be honest with you and say we don't really have assistance or they have assistance They don't have Like aides like what do you call it Like instructional aids they'll have an as a classroom assistant but their job really isn't to be an instructional aid like a special education aid So they should hopefully be really upfront with you at first And I do work with some parents around town with consulting a little bit because we have to be able to smooth out the rough patches between not wanting an assistant to come in And the parent really devoted to this Montessori education for their child How can we make this collaborate How can we make this work So we have to find a way to meet in the middle So I would say be definitely be an advocate for your child Find a way to contribute somehow to the community Like maybe come in and read a story If the teacher wants you to or host like a small group gardening club or I don't know music I don't know It was just something

Yeah Something where you have a strength that you can share with the community

Yeah

Nice So I know that you recently started something going on over there and in round rock Texas starting your own Montessori school So what can you tell us about that

yeah That was this was totally I don't know if I ever thought my life was going to take this direction So I have This undying passion for Montessori And I just can't seem to let it go And I've been trying like I'm just hooked and I just know that I've seen it I know that it helps children And so I've taking all of my training and behavior analysis because I also love that I can't let that go either working in behavior center I saw the power of wow this is actually like human behavior is happening right here in front of my eyes Like it's super powerful And it was a lot like Montessori And so here I was having these two similar I couldn't choose one So now I'm going to try to integrate them So that's it's an experiment I don't know if it's going to work but so far I've been trying it out in classrooms for several years now And It worked for me So

what's the name of your school

oh tier three Montessori tier three in regards to the triangle the pyramid the RTF the MTSS RTI pyramid

awesome Yeah I haven't even asked you that before Like what tier three how you came up with the name tier three

Yeah

That's awesome And how can people find out more information about your school and the resources that you share with regards to special education and Montessori

I have a website I paid someone to do the website cause I'm not super tech myself but it's called it's just tier three montessori.com

Awesome

We will get that up We will get that in the show notes as well for you too as we wrap up first of all I just want to say thank you for being here it's good to see you again I was kinda hoping Mikey would wander through and we could put them on the pod for Say hi and we could interview him just a little bit here as well but maybe we'll do that we'll do that at another time but do you have any like last words parting words any sort of encouragement maybe a little story of just the success for kids dealing with special needs and special attention and the intersection of Montessori

Oh man yeah just I CA I don't have one specific story There's just so many but yes I another thing that's built into Montessori is repetition So ABA and Montessori both have repetition so there's something magical also about that And so if your child has special they're not going to be in lockstep with the class They're not going to have to just miss something Oh I wasn't there that day I missed that lesson and then never catch up It's not like that in Montessori you have three whole years to catch up on how to do dynamic addition with the caring and all that or subtraction or division or whatever it is you would miss in a public education public traditional education So you have a lot of repetition So it's built in I've just seen miracles and I don't want to get weird about it but I can't give it up It's awesome

Now I hear you and just to remind everybody out there we've we have spent a good deal of time I dunno if it's experimenting but really just trying to find the right combination and the right process or just the stuff that's going to help Mikey And while we've done this he's been in a when he first started school in Virginia he was in a he was what's the kind of cost Yeah Self-contained autism classroom yet And then he went into more inclusion after that But if we didn't have that self-contained environment I don't think he would have learned the routines of just the normal public school So that helped seeking out help from an through ABA and through occupational therapy Like those things helped And then when we were tuned into Montessori This has helped a lot he now can when it comes to science he has the freedom to be like you know what we're talking about today weather and everybody knows he's going to talk about whether he needs It's just but he's a it's okay for him to completely envelop himself into that subject matter because he's learning how to learn but the by-product for all of you guys out there with multiple kids is Both of the both of our girls have benefited from this environment as well And they don't have to be on the spectrum to experience what Montessori has for them and to tease this out a little bit our oldest daughter grace she's in charge of safety within their orchard and she feeds chickens and picks up after them and they plant food So that doesn't happen At most other schools and I'm glad she's getting that experience as well So just want to say that the combination of the things that are going to really work for you are really going to work for you and they're going to have to be applicable to your kiddo and fit into your life but I think you may have heard it a couple of times here as well Like neither one of us on this are Out there but we've just found a way to make it happen And you can too So we just want to leave you with that little bit of encouragement How there's anything else you want to say to wrap

Nope I'm good

All right then I guess I guess I was the most inspirational person of the episode at no I'm kidding The award goes to me Cool Erin thank you so much again for your time I know we'll be following along your journey as you build the school and help and Tut help kids and touch families and It may seem weird but we're proud of you and we just want to encourage you and keep it up

Thanks

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